Repeal the County’s Open Space Tax? – YES!

by fans of Rasmussen, Gallup and Quinnipiac

County Commissioners – Sara, Peter and Jon!  The Evidence is clear – Eagle County wants the opportunity to REPEAL the County’s Open Space Tax – this coming November.

Because Eagle County (is not) a Home Rule Colorado County – your elected County Commissioners must agree to put this question on this November’s Ballot.  Keep in mind this same group of Commissioners – put on your last November ballot – the question to allow THEMSELVES an extension to their own TERM LIMITS.  They lost that question.  Term limits for County Commissioner still set at two consecutive, four-year terms.

The cost of a single Ballot question?  To this end – an ECT contributor called Eagle County Clerk and Recorder – Teak Simonton to determine – what real cost to the EC Taxpayer – would be by putting this question on  November’s County wide Ballot.  NEGLIGIBLE was the cost answer.  Clerk Simonton said she expects this November’s ballot to be no longer than one page – probably nothing printed on the back of this November’s (off-year) election.

Cost – it turns out is not a reasonable objection to putting it on our Ballot.

Politics it turns out – probably will be.  Eagle County Commissioner Sara Fisher has been a strong proponent of “cowboy welfare” having voted YES every chance she got to give (already wealthy Ranchers) millions more of your tax money.  Tax money for these so-called “conservation easements” on land in Eagle County – land the ECT will point out – you can’t easily find, use or reasonably access.  The Bair and Gates Ranch Open Space purchases are prime examples – of (now term limited) Commissioner Fisher’s – yes votes.

The ECT’s Poll from last week PROVES that the majority of taxpaying voters want the opportunity to repeal that open space tax – this November.  Turns out even if our Poll results were off by 20% – that still leaves a 60-40 percentage of voters who want the chance to repeal the Open Space Tax, Commissioners!

The ECT’s screen shot above shows the latest results of our ECT weekly blast email.  Yes, the ECT is safely delivered (confirmed) to 4,886 Eagle County Email inboxes, each week.  This doesn’t count the folks that read the ECT from Facebook links, Twitter and shared email links…

You can help support this Ballot effort – just by (Clicking Here) the ECT gang has set up a simple email for you to send to your County Commissioners today!

It’s time to ask yourself – do we have a County Government – “of the people, by the people and for the people?” or do we have a County Government of “special interests”?

What’s printed on this November’s Ballot – will answer those questions for you…

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35 responses

  1. Before there was a Eagle County Times – There was controversy-

    Gates Ranch – owned by retired Eagle County Commissioner Bud Gates-who wanted you taxpayers to buy his ranch so HIS family can enjoy it for life, funded by you. So we bought it- and btw-you may not access it at all.

    Happy reading
    ——————————————
    Oct 13, 2007
    Gates family hopes for deal to preserve its land. Selling the development rights would give the family the financial ability to make it all work and ensure the land would forever be a ranch.

    Other critics have suggested that public money shouldn’t pay for land that the public can’t use. Bud says allowing people to roam around a cattle ranch could be dangerous as animals can be unpredictable.

    “You don’t run cows, kids, and dogs on the same ground,” Bud says.
    … he (Bud Gates) wants to pass the ranch on down to his sons, Kip and Doug, and then on to future generations of the Gates family.

    http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20071013/NEWS/71010033&parentprofile=search
    ==============================
    And for a idea of how long our three commissioners have ignored voting taxpayers in order to fulfill their personal agendas–read on. The ECT doesn’t call these actions Corrupt–but I dare say you all might. Especially as you read these…

    (yeah– Eagle County TAXPAYERS SAW the word ‘CORRUPT’ LONG AGO… )
    ==================================

    taxpayer request – letter to editor
    December 5, 2007

    It is clear that the Eagle County Commissioners were strongly influenced by a special interest group (Eagle Valley Land Trust) when they made their decision to buy hypothetical development rights for the Gates Ranch while leaving ownership of the land with the Gates family.

    – Commissioner Sara Fisher indicated she was “voting from her heart,” having enjoyed a long-term political relationship with former commissioner Bud Gates – (who started her political career when his board appointed her county clerk)

    – Commissioner Peter Runyon leafed through the grossly inflated appraisal and couldn’t seem to find anything wrong with it

    (Read more here http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20071205/LETTER/71205020&parentprofile=search)

    AND THE Ruling by our Two of the Three Elite is? “IGNORE taxpayers”
    ———————————————————————-

    taxpayer request- Letter to Editor:
    May 1, 2009
    titled “Let’s close open-space loophole”

    With regard to the Eagle County open-space initiative, it’s clear that the deciders, including the county commissioners, don’t hear their constituents.

    Their next purchase, like most of the prior ones, offers no public access. How many people who voted for this tax were aware that they wouldn’t get to enjoy the protected land, except in some abstract fashion or by using Google Earth?

    They’ve now spent tens of millions of our tax dollars, yet I’d love to hear even one story about someone who took a nice hike or caught a big fish on one of these parcels. Anyone?

    ( read the rest here http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20090501/LETTER/904309889&parentprofile=search)

    Ruling by our Three Elite is? ” 100% IGNORED”
    —————

    taxpayer request- Letter to Editor:
    June 29, 2009
    titled ” Asking too much for ranch easement”
    Letter by county Commissioner Arn Menconi

    Overpaying for this parcel sets a bad precedent for the future. Looking back, in better financial times, I think we let emotions sometimes get ahead of our bank accounts and caused the price of easement acquisitions to inflate.

    Just like families taking a hard look at their budget at the kitchen table, our commissioners need to push for the best possible value and send a message to future landholders and sellers that all deals are going to be looked at a lot more carefully and with a strong dose of skepticism.

    ( Read the rest here http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20090629/COLUMS/906289997&parentprofile=search)

    Ruling by our Three Elite is?: “IGNORED”
    ==============================

    So let us see if county Commissioner Jon Stavney will follow through–OR follow the others lead and IGNORE you all….again….

    Because I suspect the majority wanting to repeal or rewrite “our” Open Space will not please him…or Runyon, or Sara Fisher who I quote- “votes with her heart” while 100% ignoring you- while happily spending YOUR money.

    PS perhaps we should really launch an investigation into recalls while we are at it….

  2. So, you took an unscientific online poll, posted it on your website, and in fact compelled people to vote how you wanted them to in the posting itself.

    (“The ECT gang – believes the opposite. Namely that if County voters are given the chance on this November’s countywide Ballot – there is/would be over whelming support to REPEAL the County’s Open Space Tax!

    What you can do! Vote in this weeks (ECT Poll) and add your voice to this important – tax payer issue!!! It’s on our Right Margin – right at the top, PLEASE VOTE!!!”)

    So, what have you proved? That 80% of visitors to your own website (a demographic very unlikely to represent the county as a whole) agree with you. Very impressive, that. I’m surprised the number was so low. The ridiculous punctuation of this posting underscores the asinine nature of the whole thing. Stupid syntax for stupid ideas.

    • too funny! – your comment.
      If you don’t like the ECT’s syntax – how about the ECT’s Algebra this week? Any issues with that?
      Since when is it a “stupid idea” to let voters – vote on such a controversial County issue – as the Open Space Tax?
      Are you against, Democracy too? Are you directly, personally benefiting from the County’s Open Space Tax?
      PS – Thanks for reading the ECT by the way! Please keep those amusing comments coming! ECT readers love ‘em

  3. The ECT’s algebra was fine, but overly (maybe intentionally?) complicated. Derivation is not necessary to solve the math problem.

    You are only adding to my point. For a rag that bangs on about the CSAP and criticizes teachers constantly, I would expect writing that would at least pass an 8th grade composition class. The syntax in the original post and yours above (I assume you wrote both) is laughably bad and would not get a decent grade in any of our local public schools.

    P.S.
    It’s a fine idea to let voters vote on anything. Voting is meaningful. Clicking on an online poll is not. 80% of the anonymous visitors on your website indeed voted the way you told them to. Means nothing.

    • Really?
      Please show the ECT the alleged line in our story where (as you say)…
      “voted the way you told them to”
      Exactly – where is the ECT sentence that you claim – told folks “how” to vote in the ECT’s online Poll?
      Exactly – what evidence do you have – that proves how/why the ECT’s online Poll from last week “means nothing”.

      Interesting…your comments almost read like your perspective seems to be… “I read something on the ECT that I disagree with – so therefore it (ECT) must be wrong!”

      ECT appreciates a difference of opinion. No problem, in fact ECT encourages online debate.
      ECT would very much like to see you support your position (with tangible evidence) not another allegation – that simply agrees with an earlier allegation you made.

      YES, ECT’s goal is to have on our November Ballot – the question that will allow County voters the opportunity to repeal the Open Space tax!

      ECT would very much like to know – how best to accomplish that…in your view!

      Suggestions?

  4. You are entitled to your opinion, I don’t have any problem with that. My issue is with any publication that would claim to have “proven” anything off of an unscientific, online, click based poll. Is there a line in your post that says “click yes now”? Maybe not, but you can’t convince me that posting a poll where you’ve stated your opinion and predicted the outcome is anything close to neutral. I can’t see how this “publication” is anything more than an avenue for incivility hiding behind anonymity. Your personal attacks on public officials go too far, and your use of middle school students as the butt of a global warming argument is disgusting.

    What evidence do I have that your poll means nothing? I’ll let you google the scientific merits of polldaddy for yourself, but I can tell you that I just voted from a public computer in Spain (I’m travelling). I’m from Eagle County, but basically anyone with a mouse and an internet connection can weigh in here and you have no way of verifying anyone’s identity. You have no idea what your sample was, and the fact that the poll was posted on a non-neutral, conservative/choose-your-own-label commentary site suggests that it was anything but random.

    • First things first.
      – Have a safe trip!
      – Must be time for bed there – after a long trip. That TCP/IP address you posted from does resolve to a location in Madrid. Never been there. Hear it’s nice. Don’t worry – ECT can’t “tell who you are” ECT not asking – however, yes ECT can tell (where on the Internet) posts are made from.

      Allegation: You have no idea what your sample was, (actually the ECT does) it’s just that you the ECT reader(s) – don’t.
      Allegation: “Your personal attacks on public officials go too far” Name one. Just one. Web link + Quote/Sentence.
      Factoid: Sara Fisher’s voting record – was called into question in the ECT’s top story this week. There was nothing “personal” about Sara – no personal attack as you claim.

      Again: Your perspective seems to be…”gee, I read something I disagree with in the ECT…therefore the ECT is wrong…and my unfounded, unproven allegations are the correct ones.

      A friendly wager? Yes, it’s going to be tough to get the repeal question on the November Ballot.
      Will you support the ECT’s democratic efforts – to that end?
      If yes, and we can (both?) get the question on the ballot – ECT will bet one bottle of champagne that it gets repealed…

      Care to take our bet?

  5. I like the poll–I see nothing different on it from the ones the newspapers run-except they show how many people vote. No names-just a count.

    But the 20-80 vote split has remained fairly consistent on the ECT poll. It changes, but still reflects a majority who want to repeal or change this tax which barely passed and apparently behooves commissioners and other political players personally and a tax that does about zero for the paying public who has no ‘Special Interests.’

    The reality is-readers on the Vail Daily (aka Fishwrap) read the ECT’s–see?!!!

    (Most VD posters/letter writers support the ECT poll result of Put The Tax on The Ballot just to warn you- and my oh my-the Tax ‘n Spend crowd certainly are testy…. and crude ….and rude… but whatever floats their boat eh?!!)

    ————————————————————

    World Party

    I agree with you, Winston. Why would our commissioners place a repeal of this tax on the ballot? It would certainly curtail the spending on self serving items such as.
    Commissioner Peter Runyon: “My property values will go up if this goes forward. I am confident of that”.
    https://eaglecountytimes.com/

    Restless, you say,”Are you really going to cite the Eagle County Times as a valid source of public opinion?”

    Well yes, I am, even our very own Commissioner Stavney believes ECT’s is a valid source of public opinion too. Feel free to check, heres the link;

    https://eaglecountytimes.com/

    Vote in this weeks (ECT Poll) and add your voice to this important – tax payer issue!!!
    The EagleCountyTimes.Com has been asked by Eagle County Commissioner Stavney – to provide our results to him and the rest of the BoCC next week!
    ——————————————————–

    restless native

    The Eagle County Times is a message board for Tea Baggers and other bitter, white, old people with too much time on their hands. Its polls mean absolutely nothing to anyone. That’s why all the candidates they support during elections inevitably lose.
    ———————————————————-
    Restless,

    Are you really going to cite the Eagle County Times as, ” a message board for Tea Baggers and other bitter, white, old people with too much time on their hands.”

    Wow! Where does that leave Commissioner Stavney in your vulgar little diatribe? Considering he values the results of the Open Space Tax repeal poll https://eaglecountytimes.com/ has offered the local taxpayers.
    Then you call Winston, “morons like you”. Uhoh, who’s behavior appears moronic?
    If you want to sway popular opinion to your favor, these probably aren’t the most mature tactics to use.
    A little bit of friendly advice, can the juvenile namecalling, outline sources of your information, you might gain some credibility and appear better than a spoiled child having a temper tantrum.
    ————————————————————

    shnaggletooth

    The Eagle County Times is in no way a legitimate news source, or a civil forum of debate for that matter. The editors and writers are typical demagogues, using middle school students as the butt of an imagined global warming controversy the last time I found myself reading it.

    “ECT is also willing to give partial credit [for a math problem] for the students trying to learn at Minturn’s Public School – including poor Minturn students who might have answered: Gosh…”An inconvenient truth, Mr. Gore”: My Minturn public school teacher doesn’t teach us about things like Tangents – she wants to “Educate” us Students about “Global Warming” and call our Minturn teachers personal opinions about Global Warming – Education!”

    Don’t defend ECT, especially while attempting to chastise someone else for juvenile behavior.
    ———————————
    WilliamWallace

    “imagined global warming controversy” Do you want us all to believe shnagglepuss that there is no controversy about global warming? Surely you jest!

    Sounds like JCameron is a self appointed blog cop.

    Restless, after reading this comment thread, it is apparent to me that this discussion really is whether or not the commissioners will put the repeal of the open space tax on the ballot this Fall. I don’t understand what your point is?

    http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20110318/LETTER/110319802/1022&ParentProfile=1065

  6. Really, you know what your sample was? How many of those polled were registered voters? How many republicans, democrats, and independents? I suppose you have a verified Eagle County address for every response?

    The open space tax has already been on the ballot. If you can get it on again through proper channels, that’s fine, but I don’t think online polls are any service to your cause.

  7. Zach–the Swift newspapers (who run independent polls for often geared for each county, ie, Vail Daily, Eagle Valley Enterprise, Post Independent, Greeley Tribune, Aspen Times and so on) don’t find out “how many of those polled were registered voters. Or how many Republicans, Democrats, and Independents–nor have a verified Eagle County address for every response.”

    Neither does the Denver Post, or 9 News–no one does that I am aware of in online polls!

    The Eagle County Times poll is IDENTICAL to those above-except some sites show how many tens, hundreds or thousands have voted. That, plus not allowing multiple votes from the same party’s (some online polls allow that) is the only difference(s).

    Just ask our county commissioners to put a repeal on the ballot, it is much cheaper than their term limit question, and the commissioners represent people here so have them put the question on our Nov. ballot. we will tell them how we want money spent or given. Maybe the 51 voters who voted yes in 2002 have changed their mind, and– maybe not!

    Those who vote will be only registered EC voters and you will get your answer as to whether taxpayers in EC want this tax or not.

  8. No, the swift polls don’t do any of the above. But I’ve never seen anyone claim that the swift polls “PROVE” (in upper caps) anything. They provide entertainment. They are not substance for town, or any government, conversation. My main claim is that the poll on this site proves nothing at all, and should be regarded as such. I stand by it, and defy anyone to give me evidence otherwise.

    • Evidence proved after the first Tuesday in this coming November.
      Of course, we have to get it on the ballot first.

      ECT friendly wager to you stands.
      ECT’s goal – to get the repeal of the open space tax on the November 2011 County wide ballot.

      Not too sure what Zach’s goal is here (he/she) obviously well educated.

  9. Make the repeal of the open space tax a November ballot question. The Commissioners should vote to allow this question to be included in the coming election . Economic conditions have changed for most of us since the tax passed. Why not let the constituents vote to keep or remove the tax because other areas might now have a higher priority than open space , like education. The Open space tax of 1.5 mills took in $ 5.4 million last year over 10 million is unspent in the fund. While the tax might seem small to elected officials could not the funds be better spent ? Taxes are going to go up why not remove a tax that is not working for the taxpayers. The lands purchased with our tax money have little or no access for the public.

    A question to the commissioners is how many signatures on a petition would it take to persuade you to put this on the November Ballot ?

  10. I like to visit the various online news sources not only to read the articles, but also to view the comments from their readers.

    One of the items you neglect to notice here, Zach. This particular news source doesn’t focus on anything other than the actual story. Even though ECT’s is touted as the conservative voice, their stories (in my opinion) don’t appear to be slanted. They seem to be quite matter of fact, and based on information which can be readily verified. Kind of a “Like it, or Leave it” no biggie, Just the facts ma’am, attitude.

    None of the commentors are inundating you with negative monikers, accusing you of limited intellect (actually it appears they appreciate you’re well educated demeaner). Isn’t it nice to be able to share your opinion without suffering personal attack? For that alone, I would be more inclined to agree with the viewpoints of those on this thread.

    As for the Open Space Poll? I am a registered voter in this county. I voted in this poll. It matters to me as a taxpayer. I have a voice, and a right to be heard as do you. I say put it on the ballot.

  11. Sure, follow the proper channels and get it on the ballot. I would be interested in a vote, and would love to see the results of a real poll.

    My problem with this paper is that it makes a lot of vague, sometimes conspiratorial insinuations (“cowboy welfare”, MMS teachers tell their students what to think, etc.), and never signs a real name to any of it. I take special offense to the making fun of middle school students because of a disagreement over global warming. Argue global warming all you want, but until you have evidence of some liberal plot to brainwash students don’t put down kids who had the courage to hold themselves up to public scrutiny. They signed their names on their opinions, have the decency to do the same. I would be too embarrassed to sign my name on what was written here, and evidently the actual authors of it were too.

  12. I am going to go off-topic here, so I apologize in advance, for students writing what they were (incorrectly) taught likely has nothing to do with taxes, unless one is talking about the two largest tax recipients in Eagle County–the county and the schools.

    I didn’t write the article you question (my name would be on it) but I will say this as fact- our weakened trees getting Pine Beetle infestations are NOT a result of Global Warming (-read the Congress and forestry reports from Eagle County for past few decades-don’t rely on AL Gores expertise here) yet someone incorrectly taught these students this misguided & bogus info as they wrote about it in school. (“As climate change gets warmer, pine beetles thrive more. The effects of climate change: increasing pine beetle population” and so on….)

    If not school-taught by teachers- taught by whom then? Their parents?

    Furthermore-this is at best a 4th grade writing level-or at least it was 10 years ago in America. And these students are the ‘norm’ group and they don’t come cheaply to Eagle County taxpayers either!

    We pay more than $11,325.07 PER pupil, PER year when one includes the loan costs called bonds as of June 2010.

    I say “Wow” and of course you must add the bond loan costs for the same reason people must add their mortgage/rent costs annually when doing a budget.

    I am not sure what our current ‘per pupil per year’ costs are now with the latest loan ($10.5 million to be exact) we taxpayers just financed (but were not asked) for the Battle Mountain remodel, but the per pupil cost above is from Phil Onofrio and I say thank you Mr. Onofrio for sending all this upon request. I and others appreciate it.
    —————–

    All students letters link:

    http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20110306/LETTER/110309881&parentprofile=search

    http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20110313/LETTER/110319940&parentprofile=search
    ——————————————-
    Battle Mountain remodel

    $10.5 million total cost- $7.5 million is a series of one-year loans, instead of one multi-year loan.

    That allows the school district to dodge the restrictions of Colorado’s TABOR Amendment that bans governments from taking on multi-year debt without voter approval.

    Full story here http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20110119/NEWS/110119777&parentprofile=search

  13. You want to worry about votes in online polls? Then add this real worry – voters who vote but by federal law cannot vote!

    In Colorado, if you are a non-citizen with no voting rights but you (unlawfully) sign the affidavit “that person must be allowed to vote.”

    Remember our Open Space tax passed by 51 voters-and our Sheriff race was decided by less than 100 voters.

    So almost 9000 illegal voters can change a election’s outcome.

    DENVER (AP)

    – Nearly 12,000 registered voters in Colorado are listed as non-U.S. citizens, the secretary of state’s office says.

    – State voter rolls list 8,736 active voters as non-citizens

    and

    – lists 3,106 who haven’t voted in recent elections

    – if someone signs the affidavit, that person must be allowed to vote.

    Full story- http://www.9news.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=158014&catid=139
    ———————————-

    Want to worry about the state budget causing our schools to ‘need’ a new tax here? Worry about this expenditure then-

    State APPROPRIATIONS – DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH CARE

    Services for 5,621 Non-Citizens at an average=

    $62,531,644 (millions)

    http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1237961095900&ssbinary=true

  14. Again, you are complaining about other people’s writing abilities whilst working for a publication that writes terribly. This post and most others misuse punctuation and structure sentences so badly that comprehension is seriously impeded. The kids’ writing in VD was far better than that in the original post here. You write proficiently, so I’m sure you’re aware of this problem with ECT. If this paper can’t manage to write correctly, how can any of its staff criticize middle school students?

    As for the content of the letters, there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating your disagreement or pointing out factual errors. However, to make fun of the students, and to presume without evidence that they weren’t capable of coming up with their own ideas is shameful. To do so anonymously, as an adult, is plain cowardly.

    As for your arguments concerning voter fraud: show me some evidence. I think what you are talking about are provisional ballots, which are not counted until after election day when the person in question’s status can be verified. When you say “that person must be allowed to vote”, you mean “that person must be allowed to fill out a provisional ballot.” As for actual incidences of voter fraud in Eagle county, you have no evidence and your claims and vague insinuations should be correctly thought of as conspiratorial nonsense until you can produce some. The sheriff’s vote was closely monitored by multiple parties and I never heard any complaints from them.

    • Zach – your comments always welcome here at the ECT. ECT’s writing style? Yes, deliberately different – as in intentional. Yes, ECT is not written for everyone…mostly for Eagle County folks that “have to think for a living”. ECT happy to let the Daily Fishwrap and VM newspapers – write for the least common denominator here in Eagle County. Have you read some of their (VD) recent – letter’s to the editor? Sheesh. How do these folks – find their way to work in the morning?
      Too funny! You comment about – anonymous comments – while you yourself, write comments, anonymously. It’s OK with the ECT – glad to have Zach as a reader. ECT not asking who Zach (he/she?) is…Keep up the good work. Will have a new issue of the ECT up soon! 1:07PM Sunday. PS – Please drive carefully if you’re out and about…the Police Scanner – radio link – on the ECT’s site has been very busy since the weather turned today!!!

  15. You will allow that there is a difference between commenting as a visitor on someone else’s site anonymously and running a publication that names names and make accusations anonymously. Zach is my real name, and yes I am a male. So far I have not criticized anyone other than the anonymous publishers and commenters on this site. As soon as I name a name I’ll give you mine.

    I’m not usually one to police grammar, but after you’ve accused middle schoolers of being poorly educated I can’t allow you to call your blatant errors stylish. In your post above you’ve grossly misused the hyphen (by far your most common offense), confused possessives and plurals, and generally made a mess of syntax. It would NOT pass our state standardized testing. You are in the glass house throwing rocks.

    Other than that, I’m happy to have dissenting voices in the community, conservative, liberal or otherwise. I don’t doubt that you generally mean well, but I think some of the posts on this site have been less than admirable.

    • Zach – You are entitled to your opinion…as are we! Hyphen, Hyphen, Hyphen!

      Actually – the ECT’s comment about MMS is the ECT ongoing concern that students (may?) have been (are?) being indoctrinated as opposed to educated on a current debatable subject – Global Warming – to name just one. Better (we can agree?) that Schools should hold/teach some debate on a controversial subject – where both sides of the issue are represented by the student in their classroom – in an organized debate.

      Also of concern to the ECT gang – the letter that appeared in the Daily Fishwrap where (students?) of the Mountain’s Walking (school?) wrote a letter in support of Polis’s ‘hidden gems’ proposal…

      How ’bout we get a letter from those same students explaining where it says in our great U.S. Constitution – that one group of citizens (has the right?) to tell a different group of citizens where they can/can’t recreate on Public Lands – a birth right of all American citizens…ECT has no problem with responsible conservation efforts…it’s one group imposing their views on another group…that has the ECT concerned…

  16. How about you write your own letter expressing your own opinions? I won’t accuse your coworkers, family members or former teachers of indoctrinating you, because I don’t have any evidence of it happening.

    Its fair to have a concern that students are being indoctrinated. Look into it, and then bring some evidence to the public. So far all I’ve seen from you is the fact that a number of students disagree with you. You may find that suspicious, but I don’t particularly. Pointing the finger and making fun while you have no evidence and lack the conviction to sign your real name amounts to taking pot-shots from a distance. If there is anything to your claims you should stand by them and hold yourself to public scrutiny as the students did.

  17. Thanks Zach re “You write proficiently, so I’m sure you’re aware of this problem with ECT.” Likewise-

    I have always read the ECT’s to be funny and written that way on purpose so I didn’t debate it-

    And I would assume students submitting to the VD from school aren’t writing to be funny with poor sentence structure-but maybe they were — maybe but seems unlikely?

    And really-if they all wrote on the same topic it was very likely discussed in class at some point- if it was discussed in class I would think at least one student would refer back to the Dept. of Forestry’s Government Report on Vail’s pine beetles from about 15 years ago–due to many things that was explained in detail and 100% not due to any global warming at all.

    I would also think at least one student would write about the few degrees errors the scientists made when they later (mildly) rescinded their dire global warming report.

    And where was at least one mention of the fact (it is fact) that the glaciers melting has been happening since 1800’s, a documented fact, and happening back when horse ‘n buggy’s were in vogue, with no planet crowding with carbon footprints either.

    So what I question is this-why do you suppose no students wrote about what I just wrote above?

    It’s fact and readily available on the web and I can’t imagine that not one student was not at all interested in reading and writing about those. It is tracked data from national scientists and it is documented in government reports, and it is not a personal opinion.

    PS I remember very well writing about the ‘We will all burn up from the sun due to aerosols eating through the Protective Ozone layer’. Scary subject for a grade school student-and as it turned out-not nearly as dire as what we were taught in school, by our teachers. The good thing is- back then public schools stressed reading & comprehension so I began questioning these type of things by reading more and then debating and disproving them too.

  18. As for non-citizens voting, I know they sign petitions involving government, despite the polling party saying one must be a registered voter to sign … and you can not be a registered voter with temporary immigrant status or illegal status.

    However, you asked about this. the “identified 11,805 individuals who (1) were non-citizens at the time they obtained a driver’s license, and (2) are registered to vote” in Colorado.

    It is a “STATE OF COLORADO MARCH 8, 2011 report by
    Scott Gessler, Secretary of State and Judd Choate, Director, Elections Division” on them voting.

    Titled: COMPARISON OF COLORADO’S VOTER ROLLS WITH
    DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE NON-CITIZEN RECORDS

    The Department of State recently compared Colorado’s voter registration database with driver’s license records to determine whether non-citizens are registered to vote in Colorado.

    * The comparison identified 11,805 (non-citizen illegible to vote) individuals who;

    (1) were non-citizens at the time they obtained a driver’s license, and

    (2) are registered to vote.

    Accordingly, in 2006 the Department of Revenue began recording the type of document that established an applicant’s legal presence in Colorado. The Department of State requested these records from the Department of Revenue this January and compared them to the voter rolls.

    From August 2006 until mid-February 2011, 245,878 non-citizen documents were used to obtain a driver’s license or identification card.

    Non-citizen applicants for driver’s license (or identification card) who are also registered to vote
    Type of Document Provided by Non-Citizens Seeking a Driver’s License

    Employment Authorization Document 33,561

    INS Arrival / Departure Record 69,023

    US Permanent Resident Card 139,37

    TOTALS Individuals who presented non-citizen credentials
    211,200

    Full state report link
    http://cha.house.gov/images/stories/documents/co_non_citizen_report.pdf
    ———————————

    The above cannot vote but are registered to vote and in fact, some have voted recently.

    I would say that is a problem- a big problem.

  19. And the above Zach means they are registered current active state voters.

    Meaning they may, or may not, have obtained a provisional ballet any more, or any less, than “Any Other Registered Voter who is Voting.”

    Worse, that number (above) is AFTER 2006.

    Prior to 2006, anyone could get a Colorado Drivers License here sans any ID and check ‘registered voter’ which they then would be…. registered and active voters in our state of Colorado. No one checked their status at all back then.

    Plus after 2006, the Glenwood DMV clerk was selling legal drivers licenses to illegals for fast cash in the Glenwood Mall and she was arrested–so there is more potential voters here. They possess legal actual not fake Colorado drivers licenses.

    So illegals and immigrants here (despite federal law) may well have voted for Hoy or for vanBeek if they are among the current thousands of registered voters (of legal/illegal immigrant status) currently residing in Colorado.

  20. What’s your source for your claim that anyone could get a driver’s license sans ID before 2006? I got my first license well before then, and I had to provide a birth certificate and a social security card. There was no way that I would have gotten anywhere without ID. I had a state ID (not a license) issued a good time before that, and the protocol was the same. You have some circumstantial evidence, but you are still lacking anything hard to support your insinuations that illegal immigrants are behind your horse’s loss in the race for sheriff or any other public office.

    Why do I suppose students from MMS didn’t write the same thing that you did, or have the same opinions as you? I really have no idea. I can’t answer for someone else’s ideas. Doesn’t mean they were brainwashed or should be subject to ridicule.

    I think claiming that the ECT writes poorly to be “funny” is disingenuous at best. There are plenty of satire papers that write extremely well. The writing here is poor on an objective level that the students’ writing wasn’t, and I think any rationalization otherwise is dishonest.

  21. Zach–I really appreciate your seeking information and ‘conformation of’ — we need more like you in our nation-especially before they vote! As for my opinion ECT is funny- it is my opinion, I find them humorous based on outrageous facts! It is my opinion only and I get to have a opinion as do you!

    Next subject- CO licenses and illegals or ineligible to vote voters.

    Here is my ‘proof’ -the State of Colorado website and laws, with state links. (if I post something as being fact-it is or I don’t post it.)

    There are actually three CO state laws now that did not exists in 2006 and prior… thus back then enabling CO voters and drivers, and even boarding planes…

    Prior to the enactment of the three below, a ID, such as a foreign country’s Matricula Consular ID card (available in cities across the USA) was accepted as Proof of Identification for a Colorado Drivers License/state ID card.

    My friend has three issued from Mexico-trouble is, he is Euro-White, a retired US Marine and his name is NOT Al Qaeda, like his Mexican Consular ID (issued by the Mexican government) states it is)

    Also after 2006 it became CO state law that a ineligible non-citizen voting is a felony.

    In 2006 (and earlier) – no Social Security Card (etc) was required for obtaining a CO Drivers License-there was no Secure and verifiable state law.

    Here are the law enactments with the state’s links-

    1) HB 1023 / SB 211: applies “on or after August 1, 2006” to any natural persons eighteen years of age or older “who applies for” federal, state or local public benefits. Definition of “public benefits” includes both programs administered by government agencies -(includes CO drivers licenses)
    http://www.colorado.gov/dpa/dfp/sco/FiscalRules/emergency/HB1023_Q&A.pdf

    2) Colorado Secure and Verifiable Identity Document Act (HB03-1224)

    A PUBLIC ENTITY THAT IS ISSUING AN IDENTIFICATION CARD, LICENSE, PERMIT, OR OFFICIAL DOCUMENT SHALL NOT AUTHORIZE ACCEPTANCE OF AN IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT, NOR SHALL A PUBLIC OFFICIAL ACTING IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY ACCEPT AN IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT BEFORE ISSUING SUCH DOCUMENTS, UNLESS SUCH IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT IS A SECURE AND VERIFIABLE DOCUMENT.

    http://www.leg.state.co.us/2003a/inetcbill.nsf/fsbillcont/0135EC67932E44C487256CAB00008F38?Open&file=1224_enr.pdf

    3) HOUSE BILL 06S-1009-This act shall take effect January 1, 2007

    24-34-107. Applications for licenses – authority to suspend licenses – rules. (1) (a) Every application by an individual for a license issued pursuant to the authority set forth in titles 10, 11, and 12, C.R.S., by any division, board, or agency of the department of regulatory agencies shall require the applicant’s name, address, and social security number.

    SUCH DIVISION, BOARD, OR AGENCY MAY ISSUE OR RENEW ANY SUCH LICENSE TO AN INDIVIDUAL ONLY IF THE INDIVIDUAL IS LAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, AND SHALL IMMEDIATELY DENY ANY SUCH LICENSE OR RENEWAL THEREOF UPON DETERMINING THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES. THE INDIVIDUAL SHALL PROVE HIS OR HER IDENTITY WITH A SECURE AND VERIFIABLE DOCUMENT
    http://www.dora.state.co.us/Registrations/HB06S-1009.pdf

    —————————————————-

    *Requires applicants to provide primary documentation of their citizenship or lawful immigration status according to limited set of identification documents.

    24-72.1-102, C.R.S The following types of identification are Secure and Verifiable:

    CO State list of acceptable ID’s here

    http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application/pdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1191402782689&ssbinary=true

  22. And Zach–I never ( as in: NEVER!) said (nor did I imply) this -> “Doesn’t mean they were brainwashed or should be subject to ridicule.”

    What I question-and I still do is…why do you suppose no students wrote about what I just wrote above? For what I said comes straight from the Dept of Forestry, scientists world-renowned and our federal government too. By 7th and 8th grade I am sure students have reached a level of education that would now involve reading government documents as well as proving or disproving a theory, hypothesis as well as dependent, independent, and controlled variables that are crucial to critical thinking.

    If the answer is yes-wouldn’t you assume at least one student would mention a differing viewpoint and/or tracked data in their letters? See, I think they would-but my saying that is not any implied (or otherwise) attack on the students.

    Very unfair of you to even suggest such a thing came from my posts for it absolutely did not.

  23. And Zach–I never ( as in: NEVER!) said (nor did I imply) this -> “Doesn’t mean they were brainwashed or should be subject to ridicule.” I never implied or said that-only you did.

    What I question (and I still do) is…why do you suppose no students wrote about what I just wrote above? For what I said comes straight from the Dept of Forestry, scientists world-renowned and our federal government too. By 7th and 8th grade I am sure students have reached a level of education that would now involve reading government documents as well as proving or disproving a theory, data and hypothesis, as well as utilizing dependent, independent, and controlled variables that are crucial to critical thinking-which is crucial to higher thinking and education!

    And if the answer is yes-wouldn’t you assume at least one student would mention a differing viewpoint and/or various tracked data’s in their letters? See, I think they would-but my saying that is not any implied (or otherwise) attack on the students.

    Very unfair tactic of yours to even suggest such a thing came from my posts for it absolutely did not.

  24. You are defending a post that ridiculed the students and suggested that their ideas had been implanted by their teachers, so I don’t think my argument was unfair. I’m not trying to suggest that you went after the students’ intelligence, but this paper has, and that’s where I have a problem.

    • Zach – did you receive the email the ECT sent you yesterday? In particular the attachement – which is why it wasn’t posted here.
      Perhaps you can help get to the bottom of Minturn Middle School teacher – Ms. Kristen Morgan.
      What the ECT is trying to determine – is if this teacher has taught both sides of the Global Warming debate – or whether she has only taught – one side.
      The attached letters the ECT sent you (was the second wave) of letters from her students – showing only one side/one view of the Global Warming debate….

      Here is your chance to help the ECT get to the bottom on this…let the ECT know.

  25. I am defending a post that ridiculed the students?

    Not hardly! I am saying a writing style used by this site and one that has been been used long before any student letters is their way of being funny with a serious subject is all.

    Great diversion style of which I am familiar. (Attempts at) character assassination are not my style so count me out now.

    Have a good day!

  26. Pingback: County Commissioners Refuse to – Get It! «

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